Uzma is a mother of two sons from Pakistan who received her education in Nigeria, Africa. She is part of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community and has been living in Hong Kong for the past eight years. As a woman and a mother, Uzma's experiences have greatly influenced her journey, and she is excited to share her insights on femininity. In this interview, we are grateful to hear Uzma's personal understanding of what femininity means to her and her cultural background, as well as discussing the challenges and discrimination she has faced as a woman in her community, as well as some very motivational words for all feminists.
Chloe (Interviewer): Hi, Uzma. As you know, it's been a long time since I last saw you.
Uzma: Yes, I think it's a month now or no. Yes, it's been a long time.
But as you know, our magazine, XinSai, is now releasing its second edition surrounding the theme of femininity, and I would love to ask you some questions surrounding that topic. But first, why don't you introduce yourself?
My name is Uzma, and I'm a mother of two sons two kids. I am from Pakistan, but I had my education from Nigeria, Africa. So yes, I have been in Hong Kong for eight years now. That's my introduction.
It's nice to talk to you again. My first question is could you tell me more about what femininity means to you and your cultural background?
Personally, for me, feminism means being confident and to achieve what you desire. You don't have to lean on men to move forward, so I think for me feminism is being confident enough to stay strong by yourself. Coming from a cultural background from Pakistan where women are being leaned on men their whole life. From the birth, they have to listen to their dad, and then they have to listen to their brothers, and then after marriage, they have to listen to their husbands and then to their sons. I think women have never been given the choice to make decisions in Pakistan, and because of that, it's really, really hard the way culturally Muslim women are. In Pakistan, how they're being treated, not in religion way, of course, but I think it's a cultural way where women are not given the independence and freedom that they deserve.
Mm. Yeah, I totally agree with you. I feel like women should have the freedom to express themselves and have their freedom to be independent. But yeah. Thank you so much for your response. So my next question is: How have your experiences as a woman and a mother influenced your journey?
Being a mother and being a woman, I think, um, basically, I'm from a Muslim country. I'm a Muslim myself, and it's always been in media, and it's always a negative way that Muslim women are not given full freedom. Muslim women are not allowed to do these and not allowed to do that, but I really want to clarify on this point that religion never stops Islam as a religion never stops a woman from learning from education from any right. I think Islam has given more freedom to women than any other religion. Islam 101,500 years ago has already given women to inherit, has given women to get married of their own choice, get education, and get profession. I think it's all the culture that has made impact on religion that women are not given that full freedom, but coming from my Muslim background, my father has never differentiate us from my brothers, and they always say, what boys can do, you can do. So it's really important that your father has given you this choice of freedom and independence that makes you confident enough that I can do this, I can do that. So there's no difference between boy and girl. We can do the same. We can get enough education. So I think being a woman, I've been so blessed to have a father who has always treated me, giving me the confidence and saying that, yes, you can do that, yes, you can do it. So no need to be scared; you can do this. And being a mother right now, I try to impact on my boys the same thing that, you know, treat women. Don't think that she's a woman or she can’t do it. I'm a boy. I can do it. So I think everyone can do things better and you don't have to differentiate yourselves with women or with girls. So I think that's why I try to train my boys to be gentlemen and then respect women.
It's very refreshing to hear that. Like, your father is making your self-esteem really nice and how you're also giving it to your sons as well. And yeah, that's so nice of you. I feel like that's so important nowadays. Personally, have you faced any challenges throughout, like being a woman in your country or in your religion?
We do face challenges as a woman in Pakistan because we are not seen as women coming out and talking loudly or working in some professions where men are more. Women are being discriminated in a way that, oh, you should stay at home, especially the girls are not getting enough education because they said that it’s a wasting of money. If I send my daughter to school, that means I'm wasting my money on my daughter. Instead, they will use the money on the boys. This is really really sad in Pakistan that even now, in some villages or in some places, the fathers doesn't give education to the girls, and it doesn't allow the girls to go to school because they said it's just wasting of money. After all, they have to clean the house. After all, they have to take care of the kids, so no more education. So it's really sad in Pakistan that women are not given the full freedom and independence that they have to. I myself did face discrimination in finding jobs in Pakistan because they said, you're a woman; you cannot do this. There's enough space for women in our group, and this so this kind of discrimination are found culturally in Pakistan, but I think in Hong Kong, I have been very enough confident. One more thing is I wear hijab, so people doesn't come to me very easily. They think maybe I'm not a friendly person or maybe I don't like to talk to people, so in that way, I get discrimination that I've been left out. If there's a group of people and they're counting some people, maybe I'm the last person they will choose. So in that way, people have this misconception that she's wearing hijab, so she's not friendly. They don't want to come to talk to me, and they don't want to say anything. I think that this kind of discrimination I still face as a woman, as a Muslim woman, because I wear hijab, so I think we need to change that perspective that, you know what, even though I'm wearing hijab, I’m still a human being, I'm still friendly, I still love to talk and have friends. So, yeah, this kind of discrimination I face mostly.
Yeah. Even though we're in the 20th century, it's so hard to hear that it's still relevant. And today, even just wearing a hijab or even being like a woman, you're not looking and being just because you're wearing a hijab. That's not fair. Thank you for sharing your experience.
Yeah, I think maybe it's just because of the misconceptions they have in social media right now that Muslim women are these Muslim women are that, and I think maybe the social media also have, you know, have this vision of women that they, are not friendly and they don't like to talk to people. And there are these, and they're that. So I think it's really challenging for me to identify myself. Like, you know, I'm friendly; I love to talk. I love to have friends. Sometimes I've met so many friends that my male friends say that you don't look like you're a Muslim woman. Like with the confidence you have the way you speak out, I have never seen women like they have never met a woman that is so confident while wearing hijab, and they're free to talk, and they're easily to talk, and they're easily to have conversation with anyone. I'm open to all kinds of conversations. So there's no one like don't talk about this in front of or don't talk about that. So I'm open to any kind of conversation they want to have.
Yeah, that's why I wanted to reach out for you for this because I sort of just want to have a bigger demographic for the audience so then they can kind of humanise you as well because I find it so unfair because when I met you before you're always so friendly and you're always so nice—even just you. You're just really a nice human being, and I feel like I just want to show that. It doesn't matter where you come from, you can still be friendly, and you can still be nice. Thank you for your response. So how has your perception of femininity evolved over time?
Feminism, femininity I think nowadays in my I think this honestly speaking, it's my point that feminism has become in a way that you should not be should. Let me put it in a phrase; let me put it into words. Honestly speaking, in my perspective, what I think about black feminism nowadays is that dressing or wearing or going out without hijab is feminism. Dressing half clothes is feminism. Doing cigarettes or drinking beers is feminism. For what people believe in their idea of feminism. What men think feminism is that women should wear bikinis, women should smoke, women should get pregnant whenever they want to, and women can have sex with anyone they want to.
This perspective of feminism, it's a little different, and men are using that feminism to empower women. That's not true–we are much, much more than that, right? We are much much more than wearing weakness or having sex. We're much more there.
So I think the perspective is really hard to change in some men, and I've seen some men fighting for feminism. Their feminism is like women should work with us or with openly. They are allowed to wear skirts, and they are allowed to dress whatever they want so that they can feel happy. So we women are not making men happy, right? Why should we make them happy? Right, so I think the concept of feminism is really hard to understand.
So as a woman, feminism is like being confident, getting good education, having good family, having trusting. So, I think that's what feminism is.
The perspective is changing, I've seen in men. If you go and buy clothes, you will always see that girls always have shorts, short skirts and they always have sleeveless clothes. Recently I read on Facebook that there was one father he went to the market to buy clothes for his daughter, and when he went, he was being sent to the girls' section, that is where the girl's clothes is, and he said that all the clothes were half like shorts, bikinis, and all that. But my daughter wanted to wear full clothes. She wanted to wear a sweater. She wanted to wear long pants. But why are these options not there? Why does men always want to see women naked? That is the conception of feminism that women should be naked.
They should be given full freedom. They should be grateful.
For me, full freedom means allowing me to wear hijab, allowing me to work with men while wearing my hijab. This is what feminism is. Even though she's wearing hijab, let her get that point. Let her be at that point or listening to her, respecting her, or being kind to her. That's feminism.
Feminism doesn't mean you are allowed to see a woman naked all the time. So I think this perspective is a bit hard to explain what real feminism is you're talking about. Is it this one, or is it this one? I think I'm really clear about that. If men of course, there are some men who think that women should be given equal rights and women should be. But there are some men who take it in a negative way where women should be sure enough to have sex with anyone. Women should have to. She can wear naked clothes. She can wear something. It's up to the woman whatever she wants to do. You can’t treat her like, you know. So that's my honest perspective of feminism right now.
I agree with your perspective. I don’t agree with the other ones.
Yeah, I was having a conversation with some of my friends, and they was like, no, you were right. Whenever you find a date, the next thing they want to do is have sex with you. That's all what men want. That’s the first thing that they want. They don't want to understand who you are. They don't want to understand what love is or what friendship is. The next thing is the first date you went on, and they want to have sex with you, and that's what they call feminism. Oh, you're a woman; you can do whatever you want. You can have sex with so many people. This is not feminism. Come on. This is you. You're using us. You're using the word feminism on us. But that's not what it really is.
I agree with you. So can you share any stories or experiences related to the importance of women's rights or gender equality in your community or culture?
Recently, there was a drama showing in Pakistan. Just recently, I was watching on YouTube, so there's this woman her father was a taxi driver, and her father didn't give his daughter enough education because, you know, the same concept that no need to give education to women because after all, they're going to be housewives, right? So this concept they have, but this father gave full education to his son which was the younger one and then something happened. The taxi driver's father, like the father, he got a heart attack, and then he couldn't work, and he couldn't drive the taxi, and then the family started having problems because they don't have money. So this woman stand up and said, I'm going to drive the taxi, and I am going to because I don't have enough education. I can't find a job because my father didn't give me the education, so I could have not stand up and go and work outside. But what I can do is drive the taxi. She took the, first of all, her father didn't accept that, and her fiance was also very angry at her.
"No, no, you can't do that. You're a woman. You can't drive a taxi."
And then, "No," she said, "No, I have to stand up. I have to go out. I have to do this."
The way the story went on is how the men were treating her in a way like, oh, she's a woman, and they try to tease her. They try to look at her in a different way where she doesn't feel comfortable. So I think that story really hit me that, you know, the women are always being as housewives or stay at home, and they are always targets of the evil eyes from the men. She stood up, and she went and drive the taxi, and she learned how to be strong enough to talk to men.
There's one old man that came, and he said, and he called the taxi, and when he saw that it's a woman driving, he said, "how can a woman drive a taxi? I don't want to sit down inside. I don't want to sit down."
She said: "It's fine, I can take you wherever you want."
He said: "No, I will never let, I would never sit in a taxi with a woman driving."
This is the concept of in Pakistan that you know, women are not giving that the thing that they cannot do, she cannot do this, she cannot do that. When women sit in the taxi, they feel so free, and the women who were sitting in a taxi were like, we are feeling so safe now in sitting in a woman taxi. We are feeling so safe now because whenever we sit in a male taxi, we can see the eyes of how they're looking at us under the mirror, and they don't feel enough safe in the male taxi the way they were feeling safe in the woman taxi. So sometimes, you know, women need their own private time. They need their own like women should have a woman's taxis, and they feel more safe.
In our community, the Ahmadiyya Muslim community, we women have our own programs. We don't wait for the men to come and teach us; we teach ourselves.
In Islam, where men have been great prophets and great messengers, there's also women who want better and stronger women in the history of Islam. And it's mentioned in the Holy Quran. So like, you can say it. Miriam, the mother of Aziza, was her name mentioned in the Quran as one of the pious women who was who gave birth to a prophet of Allah. There are a lot of history. There are a lot of women in history that have been really, really great. And women should always be considered great in a way that they can do whatever. And they are very, very strong enough to encounter the world. Yeah, we can do that.
Yeah, we can. We can.
We don't always need men to guide us. I think sometimes, we can guide ourselves also.
Yeah. Woman Empowerment.
Woman Empowerment. Yes.
I also remember the last time we met. You mentioned how like in the Quran, it never mentioned how a boy or a guy should have more knowledge in another girl or like have different.
Yes, in the Quran, everywhere is mentioned; all who believe do this and do that. He's never said that men should do this and women should not do this. Men should do that. It's never mentioned. So it's always that all believers should have enough education. All believers should do that. All believers should do this. So I think it's just the culture that has defined women as a weak person. They always think women are weak. Women are this. But you know what? Emotionally, we are very strong. Physically, we are very strong. We can do three, four tasks at one time.
Yeah, we can do anything.
Yeah, but I think just like the culture which has made women really look bad in Pakistan and in Asian countries especially.
But hopefully, in time, this will at least get better.
Yeah, I think it's getting better. And sometimes, we women need to stand our own. We don't need, we should not expect to get a chance, and then we can do that. I think we should stand our own. We should not let men to use us, misuse us, or we should have enough confidence to talk about what is wrong and what is good and what is bad, so I know it's in Pakistan, it's a male dominant country where male are the one who decides everything. But, I think, coming out of Pakistan, I've seen in Hong Kong but they have equal rights for both men and women. Women need to stand. They should stand up. They have, and if they want, they can have their own programs. Women can get together. I think it's more safe for women to come together and enjoying themselves and learning themselves. Yeah. So that's woman empowerment for me.
I think that's so important. Thank you so much for your response. Last but not least, do you have any advice to give to the youth today?
"I always say stay honest and stay strong in your beliefs. You don't have to follow what other people are doing. You research, you search about it, and then be confident of who you are and who you are with. " (Uzma)
Yeah, that's it. Like, you know, in social media, there's a lot of things that we see right now that people are doing. These are people doing that. But sometimes, we forgot who we are and start following the trails and following trends, and we forgot about who really we are and what we really want. Something always stay strong and be confident and always believe In yourself.
Thank you for that advice, and thank you so much for agreeing to this interview. It's always such a pleasure to listen to you and hear you talk, and thank you so much for all your words of wisdom. I always enjoy talking to you. So thank you.
Welcome. Thank you so much
Uzma was interviewed by Chloe Brooke, and this interview was transcribed by Kimmi Lynn. If you want to listen to the full interview, you can check out our Spotify Podcast. You can also leave any thoughts, compliments, questions underneath the relevant Instagram post.
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